Returned to procedure.
Planning application
Inspector also inspector for phase 1.
Phase 2 reviewed but withdrawn.
Designation of all four sections of promenade.
Mr Balmer presenting.
Inspector looking a map.
Mr Balmar talking through the various parts of the prom.
Walkway not all shaded in green colour as Loch prom.
question arises about Harris, Central and Queens.
Map not as intended.
Established use of open space.
Interrupted by Mrs Bridson.
Quoting planning guidelines.
Inspector asks does anyone think its not open space?
DoI don't think it is open space!!
DoI have conceded that it should be treated as open space and any event it is conservation area.
THE INSPECTOR IS QUITE CLEAR WHAT HE IS GOING TO REPORT
There may be a loss of open space.
Area used by tram may be open space but used by tram.
Mr Balmar agrees that it will change the appearance and character of the conservation area.
A report will be submitted after the inquiry re conclusion re conservation area.
Preserve or enhance.
Murray has left the building
Thursday 26 November 2015
Morning blog
Inspector says its a better venue!
What lies ahead
A few extra attendees.
Aim to finish between 5 to 6 pm.
Douglas Corporation first
then planning control
then highway services division
Manx National Heritage will attend this afternoon.
Part 2 of the agenda.
Tramway will be just a checklist given what has already been covered.
Risk assessment.
4 separate risk assessment.
ML advised that Mrs Bridson would be attending at some stage.
ML asked if the inspector would allow him to seek clarification at an early stage re public open space. The inspector said that he would deal with it when he questions Mr Bulmer.
Douglas corporation case has begun
Full flood risk assessment not necessary but applicant should make one.
DOI HAVE NOT DONE FULL FLOOD RISK
DoI trying to blame it on planning office.
3 statements submitted
Inspector summarising submissions before they speak.
Council committed with expenditure for stables.
140th anniversary in 2016
Inspector asking for clarification.
what is a typical operation?
Mid-May to Mid-September; 9 am and 6 pm.
23 return journeys
2 trams at a time.
Are passing places adequate?
One full place and two sidings. yes.
Will be permanently restricted with new arrangement.
Discussions about width of promenade required for tracks.
Maria Bridson has arrived and I have given up my table at the front to allow her to take a seat. I've moved to the back where I can recharge my batteries although its hard to hear.
Inspector questioning the new experience.
Better views. Relaunch. Good marketing.
Asking questions about bye-laws and horses. Same as dogs?
Explaining animal nappies!
Mr Hannay claims that horse manure is not cleared after last tram.
Corporation will review systems.
Mrs Churcher - how long does waste stand? Can't predict.
Will new signs and shelters be on route?
Not finalised plans yet.
Will walkway be cluttered? Inspector finds Douglas cluttered generally.
Its not trams but shelters and signs.
Where are they at with design? Sketch sign for signs. Not yet approval for funding!!
Design started in 2011.
When did they commission Pegasus? april 2015.
risk assessment not part of initial design.
Why so late? Deemed not changing.
Up till change Douglas thought it would remain in carriageway.
What happens to historic lighting?
Inspector noting removal of palm trees and may affect other trees in garden?
Any liaision with landscape architect?
Plants will be relocated.
Must preserve or enhance a conservation area. How when trees being removed? Repeated that they will be moved.
Now speaking to Mr Crellin tramway supervisor for horses.
When was he first involved in move to walkway? 2014
Mr Crellin based at the stables which will move to terminus.
Has also been a driver. 70 years experience with Peter Cannon who is the operations supervisor.
4 drivers. Some are trained as drivers and conductors.
What about single carriageway on road?
Mr Cannon explaining that horses currently about 5 feet from cars in opposite direction.
Traffic may be confused without demarcation.
need curb on other side of trams or raised platforms.
Considering how much some of the consultants are paid I wish they would speak up. Can't hear the comments about width required.
Mr Butt asked about contraction. Yesterday it was horses couldn't cope. Today it is the cars. Inspector said he knew that, that is why he was asking the question.
Mr Cannon says tram will always stop if they see a danger ahead. Mr Cannon had accidents with two cars. Never had an accident with a pedestrian. Has seen cyclists fall off after getting tyre in track.
Questions:
Mr Hannay - detailed letter in October 2014. Received no reply. Copied letter to counciller and town clerk. Letter copied to all council. Cannot submit letter because of his previous role as director of highways. Letter contained details of matters during his employment.
Minutes of meeting 14/11/14 - Mr Black and Mr Robinson were in attendance. Corporation "told" that if trams not on walkway they could not operate for 5 years. If located next to road then corpy would want parking on walkway. Was that why corporation changed mind?
Mrs Harrison cannot be expected to know minds of councillers.
Mrs Harrison - several other factors. Resolved in April to support scheme as now stands.
Mr Hannay re exhibition in October 2014 raised concerns about children running into tram. Plan to lower wall? Reply from DoI other plans to imprive visibility.
Mr Hannay - vehicles for gardens next to wall. How will they manage when trams there? Park further out or out of hours!
Mr Hannay - re funfair. Where will seating be in relation to funfair? TT service truncated during TT so experience of TT will be missed..
Mrs Harrison - funfair not certain indefinitely.
Mr Hannay - has observed 5 or 6 de-railments. If there was a derailment it would be more serious?
Mr Cannon - never experienced a tram de-railment travel very far.
Inspector asking Mr Cannon about difference of operating on walkway? Vision very good. Invited inspector to travel on tram. Main objector to get up and down promenade safely that won't change.
Inspector - no difference in risk? Mr Cannon - different risks will be factored in to operation.
Mr Quirk told not to repeat questions.
Mr quirk re queens gardens - duty to protect gardens. Is it servicing rate payers well by removing green space?
Mrs Harrison - may enhance Queens Gardens.
Mr quirk claiming the gardens are used for sport? Mrs Harrison doesn't believe use will diminish.
Mr Quirk - driving licence requirement. None.
Inspector says the risk assessment is not confidential
Mr Butt also wrote to corporation about their view on moving trams.
Mr churcher re different operations. Fewer stops. Horse will be at same speed as now. Drivers will adjust to circumstances.
Mr Alistair Inving - Will dogs have an impact? Mr Cannon. No problems with dogs. If drivers have to act they will do so.
Re new tramline. New tramlines are suitable for MER or trams.
Mrs De Haven - stopping distance? Will be in risk assessment.
Mr Murphy - how do you define a hazard? Will tram always be stopping?
Mr Cannon - whole ethos is to be alert. Judgmental.
Mr Murphy made a statement.
Mrs Newton - tram stopping short of sea terminal. Mrs Harrison - will provide information at visitor centre.
Mrs Newton - how long will trams be out of action? Phase work so that tram tracks laid first.
Mrs Bridson - can't hear questions. Think they relate to shelters and extra equipment on walkway.
Mrs Bridson - trees and conservation area. Detrimental affect? Mrs Harrison repeating that trees will be relocated and may add extra plants to Queens Gardens.
Mrs Bridson - dogs allowed off lead on beach. Still have under control.
Discussion about dogs under effective control.
Inspector - will there be a change in bye-law for dogs? Not at moment.
Mrs Bridson - will horses be worried about dogs? No. Horses look at dogs and move on!
Questions about brakes. Front and back.
No warning system designed. Foot operated horn? But no decision.
Dealing with head on collision. Risk assessment mitigates this.
Inspector mentioned tokens for passing on single tracks.
What lies ahead
A few extra attendees.
Aim to finish between 5 to 6 pm.
Douglas Corporation first
then planning control
then highway services division
Manx National Heritage will attend this afternoon.
Part 2 of the agenda.
Tramway will be just a checklist given what has already been covered.
Risk assessment.
4 separate risk assessment.
ML advised that Mrs Bridson would be attending at some stage.
ML asked if the inspector would allow him to seek clarification at an early stage re public open space. The inspector said that he would deal with it when he questions Mr Bulmer.
Douglas corporation case has begun
Full flood risk assessment not necessary but applicant should make one.
DOI HAVE NOT DONE FULL FLOOD RISK
DoI trying to blame it on planning office.
3 statements submitted
Inspector summarising submissions before they speak.
Council committed with expenditure for stables.
140th anniversary in 2016
Inspector asking for clarification.
what is a typical operation?
Mid-May to Mid-September; 9 am and 6 pm.
23 return journeys
2 trams at a time.
Are passing places adequate?
One full place and two sidings. yes.
Will be permanently restricted with new arrangement.
Discussions about width of promenade required for tracks.
Maria Bridson has arrived and I have given up my table at the front to allow her to take a seat. I've moved to the back where I can recharge my batteries although its hard to hear.
Inspector questioning the new experience.
Better views. Relaunch. Good marketing.
Asking questions about bye-laws and horses. Same as dogs?
Explaining animal nappies!
Mr Hannay claims that horse manure is not cleared after last tram.
Corporation will review systems.
Mrs Churcher - how long does waste stand? Can't predict.
Will new signs and shelters be on route?
Not finalised plans yet.
Will walkway be cluttered? Inspector finds Douglas cluttered generally.
Its not trams but shelters and signs.
Where are they at with design? Sketch sign for signs. Not yet approval for funding!!
Design started in 2011.
When did they commission Pegasus? april 2015.
risk assessment not part of initial design.
Why so late? Deemed not changing.
Up till change Douglas thought it would remain in carriageway.
What happens to historic lighting?
Inspector noting removal of palm trees and may affect other trees in garden?
Any liaision with landscape architect?
Plants will be relocated.
Must preserve or enhance a conservation area. How when trees being removed? Repeated that they will be moved.
Now speaking to Mr Crellin tramway supervisor for horses.
When was he first involved in move to walkway? 2014
Mr Crellin based at the stables which will move to terminus.
Has also been a driver. 70 years experience with Peter Cannon who is the operations supervisor.
4 drivers. Some are trained as drivers and conductors.
What about single carriageway on road?
Mr Cannon explaining that horses currently about 5 feet from cars in opposite direction.
Traffic may be confused without demarcation.
need curb on other side of trams or raised platforms.
Considering how much some of the consultants are paid I wish they would speak up. Can't hear the comments about width required.
Mr Butt asked about contraction. Yesterday it was horses couldn't cope. Today it is the cars. Inspector said he knew that, that is why he was asking the question.
Mr Cannon says tram will always stop if they see a danger ahead. Mr Cannon had accidents with two cars. Never had an accident with a pedestrian. Has seen cyclists fall off after getting tyre in track.
Questions:
Mr Hannay - detailed letter in October 2014. Received no reply. Copied letter to counciller and town clerk. Letter copied to all council. Cannot submit letter because of his previous role as director of highways. Letter contained details of matters during his employment.
Minutes of meeting 14/11/14 - Mr Black and Mr Robinson were in attendance. Corporation "told" that if trams not on walkway they could not operate for 5 years. If located next to road then corpy would want parking on walkway. Was that why corporation changed mind?
Mrs Harrison cannot be expected to know minds of councillers.
Mrs Harrison - several other factors. Resolved in April to support scheme as now stands.
Mr Hannay re exhibition in October 2014 raised concerns about children running into tram. Plan to lower wall? Reply from DoI other plans to imprive visibility.
Mr Hannay - vehicles for gardens next to wall. How will they manage when trams there? Park further out or out of hours!
Mr Hannay - re funfair. Where will seating be in relation to funfair? TT service truncated during TT so experience of TT will be missed..
Mrs Harrison - funfair not certain indefinitely.
Mr Hannay - has observed 5 or 6 de-railments. If there was a derailment it would be more serious?
Mr Cannon - never experienced a tram de-railment travel very far.
Inspector asking Mr Cannon about difference of operating on walkway? Vision very good. Invited inspector to travel on tram. Main objector to get up and down promenade safely that won't change.
Inspector - no difference in risk? Mr Cannon - different risks will be factored in to operation.
Mr Quirk told not to repeat questions.
Mr quirk re queens gardens - duty to protect gardens. Is it servicing rate payers well by removing green space?
Mrs Harrison - may enhance Queens Gardens.
Mr quirk claiming the gardens are used for sport? Mrs Harrison doesn't believe use will diminish.
Mr Quirk - driving licence requirement. None.
Inspector says the risk assessment is not confidential
Mr Butt also wrote to corporation about their view on moving trams.
Mr churcher re different operations. Fewer stops. Horse will be at same speed as now. Drivers will adjust to circumstances.
Mr Alistair Inving - Will dogs have an impact? Mr Cannon. No problems with dogs. If drivers have to act they will do so.
Re new tramline. New tramlines are suitable for MER or trams.
Mrs De Haven - stopping distance? Will be in risk assessment.
Mr Murphy - how do you define a hazard? Will tram always be stopping?
Mr Cannon - whole ethos is to be alert. Judgmental.
Mr Murphy made a statement.
Mrs Newton - tram stopping short of sea terminal. Mrs Harrison - will provide information at visitor centre.
Mrs Newton - how long will trams be out of action? Phase work so that tram tracks laid first.
Mrs Bridson - can't hear questions. Think they relate to shelters and extra equipment on walkway.
Mrs Bridson - trees and conservation area. Detrimental affect? Mrs Harrison repeating that trees will be relocated and may add extra plants to Queens Gardens.
Mrs Bridson - dogs allowed off lead on beach. Still have under control.
Discussion about dogs under effective control.
Inspector - will there be a change in bye-law for dogs? Not at moment.
Mrs Bridson - will horses be worried about dogs? No. Horses look at dogs and move on!
Questions about brakes. Front and back.
No warning system designed. Foot operated horn? But no decision.
Dealing with head on collision. Risk assessment mitigates this.
Inspector mentioned tokens for passing on single tracks.
Wednesday 25 November 2015
Evening session has started
Introduction by inspector.
Reviewing process for those not in attendance earlier.
DoI and consultants introducing themselves again.
DoI re-stating in summary what was said today.
About 6 people have indicated that they wish to speak in opposition,.
Will take the comments from the objectors first and then Maria Bridson and then Murray Lambden.
225 i.nitial objections. After amended scheme including 51 new and 91 repeats. 275 different representation.
One one supported whole case. Some partially supported.
Main focus is the relocation is the relocation of the trams, safety and conservation area
Objections too on cost ground or the car parking arrangements.
Concerns about share space.
Lots of other objections too.
Some wished to move the trams to other locations.
Inspector continuing to explain his role,
Starting to hear objections.
Chris Cale to speak
References to car parking plans for the port area. Is it really necessary to provide so many spaces?
Mr Burroughs replying. Accepts under use at Chester Street. Shop keepers feel they would be disadvantaged by having to walk from car parks.
Murray Lambden confirmed that a reply to Chris Thomas MHK in the House of Keys stated that there would 56o public car parking spaces at Fort Street.
Mr Cale advocated a permit system for hotels on the prom.
Mr Cale also stressed the amenity value of the promenade>
Dave Schuster objecting.
Safety the main concern. Gone from a sensible plan to an over elaborate scheme. Believes trams could be run in the middle of the road. Isle of Man cannot afford such a scheme.
Mr Schuster criticises the lack of co-ordination with sea defence projections.
Promenade is the unique selling point.
Anne Marie Rivers - retailing and parking taking too high priority.
Not mentioned an accident involving a tram.
Mrs Harrison Douglas Corporation responding to mention of tram accident. Circumstances different.
Mike Newby re risk assessment.
Critical of the risk assessment.
Objectives should be prioritised.
Mr Butt re loss of amenity.
References to promoting health and exercise in the isle of Man, Far more people take part in sport than in UK.
Have they sufficiently covered the amenity value. Support shared space on road.
Kevin Graham - option A would have been ok.
Tim Knott - agrees with mr Butt. Is value of amenity retained or enhanced? Close to residential area, lack of gardens.
2014 against scheme. Challenging whether space is really being increased. Tram area will be excluded by design. Two prams side by side can be enough to block the space.
An area of safety and tranquility. Its well lit too,
Shouldn't remove parts of Queens Garden.
Agreed with neither A or B at 2014 consultation.
92 alternative options.
Comments re shared space. cars abuse shared space on quay.
Murray Lambden ranted
I'll publish my statement as intended later.
The inspector is reviewing Mrs Bridson's detailed objection.
Mrs Bridson suggested a concept of shared surface.
Discussions about a possible sea wall.
No budget for sea wall. A report about the possibility but nothing else.
Mr Cale - lack of decision about sea wall undermines all the other decision making.
Geoffrey Robinson - no intention to build sea wall within next 5 years. Potential for sea wall in 5 to 20 years.
Mr Butt - scheme A will avoid need to worry about sea wall,
Mrs Bridson drew attention to Douglas Corporation debate on sea wall in September.
Also drew attention to the possible further narrowing of walkway by flood defence system.
Mr Quirk is back.
Draft policy statement re flooding..
Regular discussions with MUA and Manx Gas so that everything is co-ordinated.
mr Quirk drew attention to storm damage in 2014.
Mr Newby challenging whether adequate records of incidents involving the horse trams.
Phil Coates - increased use of walkway. To take advice from attorney general and railway inspector.
Andy Bridson - at least 2 incidents. If they happen on walkway the consequences much worse.
Mrs Bridson asking questions of Mr Barnett.
Is the onus for safety on applicant. Yes.
Belief that they will be safe. NO EVIDENCE
Comparisons with Blackpool and Disney. Any background evidence. NO
Overall walkway increasing amount of space. What is the overall plan area? THEY NEED TO BE SPECIFIC
Will people be restricted in their use of the horse tram corridor? People can walk across it,
How to avoid side sweep? Part of the operation is to stop if necessary?
Stopping distance? Not known by DoI.
Questions about lighting for crossing. Visually impaired would like all crossings to be pelican crossings.
Pedestrian counts on all crossings.
Why is parking on sea side as that means more crossing? Gateway feature is at end of Victoria Street.
How will visitors understand different crossing systems?
Mr Podmore blamed Blackpool failure on watered down shared space. How do we know that Manx system will work.
Mr Davidson taken best parts of Blackpool scheme.
questions about minimum space. Cars can be parked in either direction on road next to horse trams.
Will cars in one part have to cross over median area?
Cars will have to wait in narrow parts for cars parking.
Lack of cycle path - does it comply with good practice.
17,500 cars a day will cyclists wish to share the road.
Wall of parked cars. Designing a road or car park? road
No details of street furniture. Council deciding.
Recognise that people don't want to sit by sea wall? Aim to try and use mixed use.
Lack of information about lighting. Council responsible.
Increased noise from different road sets. No
Still aspects of design safety than could be changed.
Railway Regulations re rail safety. Responsibility starts at the beginning of the process. Reverse engineering.
Mrs Bridson continuing to challenge. Not popular with DoI at the moment.
GLAD SHE IS ON OUR SIDE.
Use of motor vehicles for sweeping horse manure. "TALKING ABOUT IT."
Not to use tram corridor for emptying bins therefore continually moving out.
No strong safety grounds for moving trams?
Is it incumbent on DoI to take a wider view re parking, flood walls.
If a child is injured? who will be responsible? Listing about 10 options.
Maria Bridson has finished.
Mr Cale - has population increase been taken into account? Yes but long answer.
Mr Cale concerned about peak traffic flows in TT week etc.
Mr Schuster - expected number of visitors.
NO PEDESTRIAN MODELS - NOBODY KNOWS HOW MANY PEDESTRIANS USE WALKWAY
Inspector asking why not?
No design guidelines on shared use of walkway?
Mr Butt - Designed option A so why can't it work now?
Dudley Butt praised Maria Bridson and there was a round of applause.
Inspector himself asking lots of critical questions now
Mr Butt continuing to push for option A.
Inspector: "we are not here to design a road scheme".
Mr Cale refers to increasing use of walkway for events.
Mr Knott - distinction between organised events and personal ise.
Mr Quirk - Douglas plan, promenade in public open space..
Unsure whether it is whole prom or part of it.
Final question - Andrew Cairns. Thanked inspector for putting on evening session.
Reference to effect of fun fair and use of traffic for car parking.
technical questions but answers not available.
Catching up with years of under investment in sea wall.
Reviewing process for those not in attendance earlier.
DoI and consultants introducing themselves again.
DoI re-stating in summary what was said today.
About 6 people have indicated that they wish to speak in opposition,.
Will take the comments from the objectors first and then Maria Bridson and then Murray Lambden.
225 i.nitial objections. After amended scheme including 51 new and 91 repeats. 275 different representation.
One one supported whole case. Some partially supported.
Main focus is the relocation is the relocation of the trams, safety and conservation area
Objections too on cost ground or the car parking arrangements.
Concerns about share space.
Lots of other objections too.
Some wished to move the trams to other locations.
Inspector continuing to explain his role,
Starting to hear objections.
Chris Cale to speak
References to car parking plans for the port area. Is it really necessary to provide so many spaces?
Mr Burroughs replying. Accepts under use at Chester Street. Shop keepers feel they would be disadvantaged by having to walk from car parks.
Murray Lambden confirmed that a reply to Chris Thomas MHK in the House of Keys stated that there would 56o public car parking spaces at Fort Street.
Mr Cale advocated a permit system for hotels on the prom.
Mr Cale also stressed the amenity value of the promenade>
Dave Schuster objecting.
Safety the main concern. Gone from a sensible plan to an over elaborate scheme. Believes trams could be run in the middle of the road. Isle of Man cannot afford such a scheme.
Mr Schuster criticises the lack of co-ordination with sea defence projections.
Promenade is the unique selling point.
Anne Marie Rivers - retailing and parking taking too high priority.
Not mentioned an accident involving a tram.
Mrs Harrison Douglas Corporation responding to mention of tram accident. Circumstances different.
Mike Newby re risk assessment.
Critical of the risk assessment.
Objectives should be prioritised.
Mr Butt re loss of amenity.
References to promoting health and exercise in the isle of Man, Far more people take part in sport than in UK.
Have they sufficiently covered the amenity value. Support shared space on road.
Kevin Graham - option A would have been ok.
Tim Knott - agrees with mr Butt. Is value of amenity retained or enhanced? Close to residential area, lack of gardens.
2014 against scheme. Challenging whether space is really being increased. Tram area will be excluded by design. Two prams side by side can be enough to block the space.
An area of safety and tranquility. Its well lit too,
Shouldn't remove parts of Queens Garden.
Agreed with neither A or B at 2014 consultation.
92 alternative options.
Comments re shared space. cars abuse shared space on quay.
Murray Lambden ranted
I'll publish my statement as intended later.
The inspector is reviewing Mrs Bridson's detailed objection.
Mrs Bridson suggested a concept of shared surface.
Discussions about a possible sea wall.
No budget for sea wall. A report about the possibility but nothing else.
Mr Cale - lack of decision about sea wall undermines all the other decision making.
Geoffrey Robinson - no intention to build sea wall within next 5 years. Potential for sea wall in 5 to 20 years.
Mr Butt - scheme A will avoid need to worry about sea wall,
Mrs Bridson drew attention to Douglas Corporation debate on sea wall in September.
Also drew attention to the possible further narrowing of walkway by flood defence system.
Mr Quirk is back.
Draft policy statement re flooding..
Regular discussions with MUA and Manx Gas so that everything is co-ordinated.
mr Quirk drew attention to storm damage in 2014.
Mr Newby challenging whether adequate records of incidents involving the horse trams.
Phil Coates - increased use of walkway. To take advice from attorney general and railway inspector.
Andy Bridson - at least 2 incidents. If they happen on walkway the consequences much worse.
Mrs Bridson asking questions of Mr Barnett.
Is the onus for safety on applicant. Yes.
Belief that they will be safe. NO EVIDENCE
Comparisons with Blackpool and Disney. Any background evidence. NO
Overall walkway increasing amount of space. What is the overall plan area? THEY NEED TO BE SPECIFIC
Will people be restricted in their use of the horse tram corridor? People can walk across it,
How to avoid side sweep? Part of the operation is to stop if necessary?
Stopping distance? Not known by DoI.
Questions about lighting for crossing. Visually impaired would like all crossings to be pelican crossings.
Pedestrian counts on all crossings.
Why is parking on sea side as that means more crossing? Gateway feature is at end of Victoria Street.
How will visitors understand different crossing systems?
Mr Podmore blamed Blackpool failure on watered down shared space. How do we know that Manx system will work.
Mr Davidson taken best parts of Blackpool scheme.
questions about minimum space. Cars can be parked in either direction on road next to horse trams.
Will cars in one part have to cross over median area?
Cars will have to wait in narrow parts for cars parking.
Lack of cycle path - does it comply with good practice.
17,500 cars a day will cyclists wish to share the road.
Wall of parked cars. Designing a road or car park? road
No details of street furniture. Council deciding.
Recognise that people don't want to sit by sea wall? Aim to try and use mixed use.
Lack of information about lighting. Council responsible.
Increased noise from different road sets. No
Still aspects of design safety than could be changed.
Railway Regulations re rail safety. Responsibility starts at the beginning of the process. Reverse engineering.
Mrs Bridson continuing to challenge. Not popular with DoI at the moment.
GLAD SHE IS ON OUR SIDE.
Use of motor vehicles for sweeping horse manure. "TALKING ABOUT IT."
Not to use tram corridor for emptying bins therefore continually moving out.
No strong safety grounds for moving trams?
Is it incumbent on DoI to take a wider view re parking, flood walls.
If a child is injured? who will be responsible? Listing about 10 options.
Maria Bridson has finished.
Mr Cale - has population increase been taken into account? Yes but long answer.
Mr Cale concerned about peak traffic flows in TT week etc.
Mr Schuster - expected number of visitors.
NO PEDESTRIAN MODELS - NOBODY KNOWS HOW MANY PEDESTRIANS USE WALKWAY
Inspector asking why not?
No design guidelines on shared use of walkway?
Mr Butt - Designed option A so why can't it work now?
Dudley Butt praised Maria Bridson and there was a round of applause.
Inspector himself asking lots of critical questions now
Mr Butt continuing to push for option A.
Inspector: "we are not here to design a road scheme".
Mr Cale refers to increasing use of walkway for events.
Mr Knott - distinction between organised events and personal ise.
Mr Quirk - Douglas plan, promenade in public open space..
Unsure whether it is whole prom or part of it.
Final question - Andrew Cairns. Thanked inspector for putting on evening session.
Reference to effect of fun fair and use of traffic for car parking.
technical questions but answers not available.
Catching up with years of under investment in sea wall.
Started again
Mr Ryzner speaking.
Mr Yellop offering to act for Corporation in absence of their health and safety advisor.
Inspector has accepted that he will represent both Corporation and DoI.
Questions to whole DoI team.
Mr Hannay. Who set proposals maintain levels of car parking? Answer: Mr Cretney and policy maintained by Mr Gawne.
Mr Hannay. Re Puffin crossing in Church Street been changed to zebra.
Mr Hannay - moving coach park to Stratallan Crescent. Agreed.
Mr Hannay - Zebra crossing questions.
Mr Quirk - questions about side of road. Why did Council change view. answer policy changed due to weight of opposition from hoteliers etc.
Mr quirk - why so much weight in favour attached to business? answer consultation.
mr quirk - re shared use of track for electric trams. No plans for now.
mr quirk - questions answered about curbs?
Mr Davidson admits people confused about shared space. Only in the cultural area is it shared space.
Mr quirk - why engage a shared space concept then? Not binding.
Mr quirk - mixing trams a recipe for disaster? No
Mr quirk - questions about access to shops. Not on agenda/
Mr Quirk - why use electric trams as example if not going to be used? Why use Disney used as an example?
Bit bogged down.
Question re single track in centre of road. Rejected on safety grounds. Looked at extending pavements too.
Too many questions by Mr quirk to record them all.
Queens gardens - taken into account access to sewerage tanks.
No agreement to buy land for Queens Gardens.
Waiting to ask my questions about consultation and confusion about siting of tracks.
Tracks will be on the road not walkway at bottom of broadway.
Many further questions from Mr Quirk.
Lost a lot of reporting about Mr Quirks questions.
Murray Lambden asked questions about the adequacy of 2014 consultation to justify a major reversal of policy.
Murray Lambden asked questions about confusion of track site.
Answers as expected.
Dudley Dutt asking good questions about when the change ofpolicy arose. Change of minister when Mr Gawne appointed.
Always 300 empty spaces in Chester Street. Why provide spaces in sea side of prom?
Dudley Butt why not stay in middle of road? Resurfaced previously. Answer, not resurfaced but re-built. Tracks are also older now and won't last for ever.
Mr Butt suggested removing parking in a limited number of places might solve the problem of passing cars. No
Mr Butt - is it possible to use pavement on Loch Prom for trams. Yes, but decision taken.
Mr Pennington - questions about modelling. how does it cope with double parking and queues for reversing into spaces. Didn't really follow answer.
Mr Pennington - re roundabouts. assume driver behaviour is good. Only single lane entry to roundabouts. Provision for two lane approaches? High risk approach if single lane doesn't work.
Mr Pennington - are you confident single lane is sufficient? Yes
Mr Fayle - are they definite plans? Referring to indicative plans. Why is indicative used? Planning application drawings not detailed working plans.
Mr Fayle - re shared space. Videos suggest it was. Has the role of distribution role been considered for this type of traffic system? Has it been compared to something similar? They looked at various schemes. Taken the best examples.
Mr Davidson thinks we will have such a good scheme that other places will want to model their schemes on ours.
Mrs Bridson - a lot of questions coming up.
Changes of times will vary at all times of day.
Models will take account of side roads too.
All policies considered.
Pedestrians links improve access to prom? The number of links
No cycle route. How will they cope? Model doesn't deal with cyclists.
Impact of 5 year construction? Can't model it. May have to be one way controls. Phases, sub-phases and sub-sub-phases.
Will walkway be used as highway? No.
Will it improve all traffic or will there be negatives because of people using alternative routes? Don't know.
Concerns about risk to cyclists. share space with pedestrians. Concern about cyclists and tram tracks.
Pelican or zebra crossing safer? Depends on user groups.
Central median strips. Two lanes of traffic at one go or not? Not a pedestrian refuge.
Which house style will it match? Consistent on prom but not through all of Douglas.
50 year plan. Durability of products. Yes.
Is tarmac suitable for walkway? Pragmatic
Blackpool comparison. Materials not fit for purpose.
Mr Thomson has also worked on Colwyn Bay. Happy with suitability for differences.
Differences in stopping distances Blackpool v Isle of Man.
How the walkway is used. Different to other locations.
Increase in walkway increasing 2,700 sq ft BUT current walkers deterred from using tram strip. DoI will revert and give full explanation.
Mrs Bridson estimates 2,600 square feel lost by horse tram strip? They will revert.
Mrs sayle - tactile surfaces.
Mr Churcher - 3 metres width waste of space reserved for trams
Mrs Bridson - questions about visual impact. Answer (of course) not too bad.
Mrs Bridson - signs about safety not good for conservation area. Answer - balancing act,
Mrs Bridson - over 50 references to warning signs. Visable clutter.
Mrs Bridson contrast with current uncluttered appearance at present.
mrs Bridson - sea debris on track.
Mrs Bridson - understanding of open space? Degree of modification. HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL CHANGE HOW THEY USE THE PROMENADE WALKWAY
Black tarmac can be more than one colour!
Mr Butt -will removal of current walkway design be a negative move? no
Inspectors question
Conservation area is 1.5 miles long. Does the plan enhance all of the four parts?
How much did they take conservation area into account?
Don't really understand the answers. Remove clutter from front of Gaiety.
landscaping expect not consulted on northern end of prom.
Question about removing free space in Queens Gardens. thinks "Space can cope."
Have the design team visited Poignton? only 300 yards long.
Any distinction?
Picking up on "not a shared space but a low speed something but Walkway is shared space."
Issues re landscaping. Hybrid proposal.
Mr Thomson supporting plans for hybrid scheme.
Mr Yellop offering to act for Corporation in absence of their health and safety advisor.
Inspector has accepted that he will represent both Corporation and DoI.
Questions to whole DoI team.
Mr Hannay. Who set proposals maintain levels of car parking? Answer: Mr Cretney and policy maintained by Mr Gawne.
Mr Hannay. Re Puffin crossing in Church Street been changed to zebra.
Mr Hannay - moving coach park to Stratallan Crescent. Agreed.
Mr Hannay - Zebra crossing questions.
Mr Quirk - questions about side of road. Why did Council change view. answer policy changed due to weight of opposition from hoteliers etc.
Mr quirk - why so much weight in favour attached to business? answer consultation.
mr quirk - re shared use of track for electric trams. No plans for now.
mr quirk - questions answered about curbs?
Mr Davidson admits people confused about shared space. Only in the cultural area is it shared space.
Mr quirk - why engage a shared space concept then? Not binding.
Mr quirk - mixing trams a recipe for disaster? No
Mr quirk - questions about access to shops. Not on agenda/
Mr Quirk - why use electric trams as example if not going to be used? Why use Disney used as an example?
Bit bogged down.
Question re single track in centre of road. Rejected on safety grounds. Looked at extending pavements too.
Too many questions by Mr quirk to record them all.
Queens gardens - taken into account access to sewerage tanks.
No agreement to buy land for Queens Gardens.
Waiting to ask my questions about consultation and confusion about siting of tracks.
Tracks will be on the road not walkway at bottom of broadway.
Many further questions from Mr Quirk.
Lost a lot of reporting about Mr Quirks questions.
Murray Lambden asked questions about the adequacy of 2014 consultation to justify a major reversal of policy.
Murray Lambden asked questions about confusion of track site.
Answers as expected.
Dudley Dutt asking good questions about when the change ofpolicy arose. Change of minister when Mr Gawne appointed.
Always 300 empty spaces in Chester Street. Why provide spaces in sea side of prom?
Dudley Butt why not stay in middle of road? Resurfaced previously. Answer, not resurfaced but re-built. Tracks are also older now and won't last for ever.
Mr Butt suggested removing parking in a limited number of places might solve the problem of passing cars. No
Mr Butt - is it possible to use pavement on Loch Prom for trams. Yes, but decision taken.
Mr Pennington - questions about modelling. how does it cope with double parking and queues for reversing into spaces. Didn't really follow answer.
Mr Pennington - re roundabouts. assume driver behaviour is good. Only single lane entry to roundabouts. Provision for two lane approaches? High risk approach if single lane doesn't work.
Mr Pennington - are you confident single lane is sufficient? Yes
Mr Fayle - are they definite plans? Referring to indicative plans. Why is indicative used? Planning application drawings not detailed working plans.
Mr Fayle - re shared space. Videos suggest it was. Has the role of distribution role been considered for this type of traffic system? Has it been compared to something similar? They looked at various schemes. Taken the best examples.
Mr Davidson thinks we will have such a good scheme that other places will want to model their schemes on ours.
Mrs Bridson - a lot of questions coming up.
Changes of times will vary at all times of day.
Models will take account of side roads too.
All policies considered.
Pedestrians links improve access to prom? The number of links
No cycle route. How will they cope? Model doesn't deal with cyclists.
Impact of 5 year construction? Can't model it. May have to be one way controls. Phases, sub-phases and sub-sub-phases.
Will walkway be used as highway? No.
Will it improve all traffic or will there be negatives because of people using alternative routes? Don't know.
Concerns about risk to cyclists. share space with pedestrians. Concern about cyclists and tram tracks.
Pelican or zebra crossing safer? Depends on user groups.
Central median strips. Two lanes of traffic at one go or not? Not a pedestrian refuge.
Which house style will it match? Consistent on prom but not through all of Douglas.
50 year plan. Durability of products. Yes.
Is tarmac suitable for walkway? Pragmatic
Blackpool comparison. Materials not fit for purpose.
Mr Thomson has also worked on Colwyn Bay. Happy with suitability for differences.
Differences in stopping distances Blackpool v Isle of Man.
How the walkway is used. Different to other locations.
Increase in walkway increasing 2,700 sq ft BUT current walkers deterred from using tram strip. DoI will revert and give full explanation.
Mrs Bridson estimates 2,600 square feel lost by horse tram strip? They will revert.
Mrs sayle - tactile surfaces.
Mr Churcher - 3 metres width waste of space reserved for trams
Mrs Bridson - questions about visual impact. Answer (of course) not too bad.
Mrs Bridson - signs about safety not good for conservation area. Answer - balancing act,
Mrs Bridson - over 50 references to warning signs. Visable clutter.
Mrs Bridson contrast with current uncluttered appearance at present.
mrs Bridson - sea debris on track.
Mrs Bridson - understanding of open space? Degree of modification. HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL CHANGE HOW THEY USE THE PROMENADE WALKWAY
Black tarmac can be more than one colour!
Mr Butt -will removal of current walkway design be a negative move? no
Inspectors question
Conservation area is 1.5 miles long. Does the plan enhance all of the four parts?
How much did they take conservation area into account?
Don't really understand the answers. Remove clutter from front of Gaiety.
landscaping expect not consulted on northern end of prom.
Question about removing free space in Queens Gardens. thinks "Space can cope."
Have the design team visited Poignton? only 300 yards long.
Any distinction?
Picking up on "not a shared space but a low speed something but Walkway is shared space."
Issues re landscaping. Hybrid proposal.
Mr Thomson supporting plans for hybrid scheme.
Case for applicant
Not all documents to be read out but inspector will report all cases in full.
Opening statement from Mr Ryzner.
Chartered Town Planner.
Assist applicant.
To provide clarification on planning policy.
Change of order
Mr Podmore unable to attend, Paul Barnett to deputise.
Change in order of presentations.
Listing relevant planning legislation.
"Not in conflict with any regulations".
Issues raised as objections carefully considered. Key concerns may be responded to. No mention of the number of objections.
Different aspects of objections to be dealt with by different officers.
Not here to defend application only to explain.
Mr Hannay questioning.
Status of conservation area?
mr Ryzner explaining.
Murray Lambden asked whether it was unusual not to mention number of objections? Answer from mr Ryzner not a high number.
Mr quirk asked about "tweaks"
Jim Davidson to speak
In highways system for 16 years.
Includes Phase 1 development,
Prom unchanged for 80 years . Lock prom in 30s.
Sumarise use. Gateway to Isle of Man. Horse trams in 1978.
Driving demonstrates how bad the roadway is. Complete reconstructoin required. drainage system also failed. Skidding resistance below safely levels. "Unnecessarily pedestrian segregation."
Large vehicles unable to pass horse trams. Unless horse trams moved can design road safely.
2014 scheme modified to include walkway.
Department believes application best solution.
Mr Hannay - has corporation raised safety issues? Yes.
Mr Pennington asked re accidents?
Mr quirk - who owns tracks? Corporation.
Mr Butt - clarify history? Was previous reconstruction done with horse trams in place? Yes, they moved. Can it be reconstructed with trams in place?
Mr Barnett to speak in place in Mr podmore. mr podmore's statement.Senior design engineer. 13 years.
Supplementary information.
Objections relate to safety. DoI have addressed these.
Engaged with groups representing vunerable groups.
Broadway to Queens Gardens widened in response to Facebook representations.
Overall size of walkway increased.
Inspector confirmed that route does take splice off Queens Gardens.
Mr Hannay - lack of taxi rank spaces? Are they needed at all.
Mr Barnett - taxi ranks to be maintained or increased.
Mr Hannay questioning speed of trams? Mr Barnett accepts speed inaccurate in document.
Mr churcher are lines still there? Yes.
Mr Churcher challenging increasing space? Clarifying use of pavement.
Inspector not clear that there is extra space either.
Mrs Churcher - questioned marking.Width of tram or overhang.
Murray Lambden said total width 7 ft. argument about metric and imperial but basically agree.
Mrs Murray asked about cycling. answer it will still be permitted.
Mrs Murray also mentioned campaign for safe distance between bikes and cars. Not considered.
Mr Hannay refers to "walls of cars" by consultant.
Mr Barnett says design changes.
Mr Hannay - has DoI accepted Douglas Corporation Parking review. Can't answer.
Mr Ryzner not adopted 2013 parking report. A REVIEW OF PARKING IN 2013 NOT CONSIDERED IN SCHEME
Mr Thomson to speak. Chartered Landscape Engineer. Consultant. Involved since 2011.
Explaining what they are trying to achieve. Roundabout at Gaiety not good.
Cultural area. Explaining different surfaces.
Seating "under consideration."
Connectivity important. With lighting too. Positive boost for town.
Responses to objectiions
Tramway defined by different colours.
Different paving.
Example Spain, and Blackpool.
Plenty of space to move away from tram. Better safety than now.
Crossing points defined.
540 to 485 car parking reduction (check)
Crossing given priority.
Re loss of amenity.
Current policy to maintain open space no conflict with open space policy.
seating not shown - that is only detailed design.
Mr quirk questions about positioning of trams.
Murray Lambden was tram corrider marked during period of planning application? given that is the area where old people sit in shelter. Black looks but no.
Monica Floding asked about shelters. Yes there will be.
Gill Churcher - what is width of narrowest part? 4.6 metres to allow tram overhang but safety distance for cycling.
Gill Churcher - questioning demarcation of tram track.
Question re seating from senior building officer. answer - can't stay where it is.
Marie Lambden - given a number 267! Second question re marking of corridor or the tracks. Jim Davidson - preferred to mark just tracks. Inspector supported questioner.
Mr Ryzner said they did offer to explain to anyone and has offered to mark tram corridor.
Gill Churcher - further question re width of corridor, safety margin and net width.
Mr Barnett giving sizes. 1.m metres safety zone. 900 track 600 overhang and 600 safety zone on other side. A bit of confusion.
Inspector calculating total width! Everything stopped trying to work out sizes.
Inspector asked for more measurements.
Mr Quirk asked questions about railway legislation.
Sorry. I think I have lost some comments from Mr Allan re traffic modelling.
thinks that traffic flow will improve.
Questionned by Mr Hannay re basis of improved traffic flow. answer evidence re shared space.
Further explanations about traffic modelling. Can't understand.
Inspector summarised that model takes account of additional crossing.
Mr quirk - no comparison with model for road with tram tracks. Clarification, yes it has been compared with current situation.
Mr C? Various professional qualifications. Another consultant. Has investigated over 300 accidents. Road safety audit team.
4 stages to road audit.
This audit just stage one based on application.
Audit finalised on 18 May. Not seen full set of drawings.
14 safety problems, All addressed. Mitigated in revised plans.
Mr Quirk - any advice on walkway. Yes, included safety audit of whole scheme.
Mr Quirk - who provided information on stopping distance on trams. NOT PROVIDED. but did ride on "to get a feel" of stopping distance.
Mr Burroughs. Next consultant to talk. Project management.
Concept forming basis of application.
Talking about emissions.
No adverse impact on air quality.
No negative noise levels.
Removal of potholes may reduce noise.
Tramway capable of being risk assessed and safe.
footway alterations improve public space around Gaiety.
Summary: everything will be better.
Shared space of trams and other can be safe.
Moving horse trams will make it safer.
Railway experts consulted.
Statement by Mr Burroughs submitted to environment safety and health,
Mr Hannay asking what "a lot of opposition" to positioning of tram tracks alongside road in 2014 amounted to. Where is evidence?
NO MINUTES OF MEETING WITH STAKEHOLDERS
Inspector reading out results of 2014 consultation.
Murray Lambden whether the 2014 consultation included any online consultation. (using the MHK approach of knowing the answer)! NO
2010 consultations were much more extensive.
Mr Yellop now talking about health and safety.
Risk profiling - reduced risk as far as possible, Horse tram operator consulted.
Defines reasonable foreseeable.
Job to ensure there is co-operation between all parties to make it safe,
Opening statement from Mr Ryzner.
Chartered Town Planner.
Assist applicant.
To provide clarification on planning policy.
Change of order
Mr Podmore unable to attend, Paul Barnett to deputise.
Change in order of presentations.
Listing relevant planning legislation.
"Not in conflict with any regulations".
Issues raised as objections carefully considered. Key concerns may be responded to. No mention of the number of objections.
Different aspects of objections to be dealt with by different officers.
Not here to defend application only to explain.
Mr Hannay questioning.
Status of conservation area?
mr Ryzner explaining.
Murray Lambden asked whether it was unusual not to mention number of objections? Answer from mr Ryzner not a high number.
Mr quirk asked about "tweaks"
Jim Davidson to speak
In highways system for 16 years.
Includes Phase 1 development,
Prom unchanged for 80 years . Lock prom in 30s.
Sumarise use. Gateway to Isle of Man. Horse trams in 1978.
Driving demonstrates how bad the roadway is. Complete reconstructoin required. drainage system also failed. Skidding resistance below safely levels. "Unnecessarily pedestrian segregation."
Large vehicles unable to pass horse trams. Unless horse trams moved can design road safely.
2014 scheme modified to include walkway.
Department believes application best solution.
Mr Hannay - has corporation raised safety issues? Yes.
Mr Pennington asked re accidents?
Mr quirk - who owns tracks? Corporation.
Mr Butt - clarify history? Was previous reconstruction done with horse trams in place? Yes, they moved. Can it be reconstructed with trams in place?
Mr Barnett to speak in place in Mr podmore. mr podmore's statement.Senior design engineer. 13 years.
Supplementary information.
Objections relate to safety. DoI have addressed these.
Engaged with groups representing vunerable groups.
Broadway to Queens Gardens widened in response to Facebook representations.
Overall size of walkway increased.
Inspector confirmed that route does take splice off Queens Gardens.
Mr Hannay - lack of taxi rank spaces? Are they needed at all.
Mr Barnett - taxi ranks to be maintained or increased.
Mr Hannay questioning speed of trams? Mr Barnett accepts speed inaccurate in document.
Mr churcher are lines still there? Yes.
Mr Churcher challenging increasing space? Clarifying use of pavement.
Inspector not clear that there is extra space either.
Mrs Churcher - questioned marking.Width of tram or overhang.
Murray Lambden said total width 7 ft. argument about metric and imperial but basically agree.
Mrs Murray asked about cycling. answer it will still be permitted.
Mrs Murray also mentioned campaign for safe distance between bikes and cars. Not considered.
Mr Hannay refers to "walls of cars" by consultant.
Mr Barnett says design changes.
Mr Hannay - has DoI accepted Douglas Corporation Parking review. Can't answer.
Mr Ryzner not adopted 2013 parking report. A REVIEW OF PARKING IN 2013 NOT CONSIDERED IN SCHEME
Mr Thomson to speak. Chartered Landscape Engineer. Consultant. Involved since 2011.
Explaining what they are trying to achieve. Roundabout at Gaiety not good.
Cultural area. Explaining different surfaces.
Seating "under consideration."
Connectivity important. With lighting too. Positive boost for town.
Responses to objectiions
Tramway defined by different colours.
Different paving.
Example Spain, and Blackpool.
Plenty of space to move away from tram. Better safety than now.
Crossing points defined.
540 to 485 car parking reduction (check)
Crossing given priority.
Re loss of amenity.
Current policy to maintain open space no conflict with open space policy.
seating not shown - that is only detailed design.
Mr quirk questions about positioning of trams.
Murray Lambden was tram corrider marked during period of planning application? given that is the area where old people sit in shelter. Black looks but no.
Monica Floding asked about shelters. Yes there will be.
Gill Churcher - what is width of narrowest part? 4.6 metres to allow tram overhang but safety distance for cycling.
Gill Churcher - questioning demarcation of tram track.
Question re seating from senior building officer. answer - can't stay where it is.
Marie Lambden - given a number 267! Second question re marking of corridor or the tracks. Jim Davidson - preferred to mark just tracks. Inspector supported questioner.
Mr Ryzner said they did offer to explain to anyone and has offered to mark tram corridor.
Gill Churcher - further question re width of corridor, safety margin and net width.
Mr Barnett giving sizes. 1.m metres safety zone. 900 track 600 overhang and 600 safety zone on other side. A bit of confusion.
Inspector calculating total width! Everything stopped trying to work out sizes.
Inspector asked for more measurements.
Mr Quirk asked questions about railway legislation.
Sorry. I think I have lost some comments from Mr Allan re traffic modelling.
thinks that traffic flow will improve.
Questionned by Mr Hannay re basis of improved traffic flow. answer evidence re shared space.
Further explanations about traffic modelling. Can't understand.
Inspector summarised that model takes account of additional crossing.
Mr quirk - no comparison with model for road with tram tracks. Clarification, yes it has been compared with current situation.
Mr C? Various professional qualifications. Another consultant. Has investigated over 300 accidents. Road safety audit team.
4 stages to road audit.
This audit just stage one based on application.
Audit finalised on 18 May. Not seen full set of drawings.
14 safety problems, All addressed. Mitigated in revised plans.
Mr Quirk - any advice on walkway. Yes, included safety audit of whole scheme.
Mr Quirk - who provided information on stopping distance on trams. NOT PROVIDED. but did ride on "to get a feel" of stopping distance.
Mr Burroughs. Next consultant to talk. Project management.
Concept forming basis of application.
Talking about emissions.
No adverse impact on air quality.
No negative noise levels.
Removal of potholes may reduce noise.
Tramway capable of being risk assessed and safe.
footway alterations improve public space around Gaiety.
Summary: everything will be better.
Shared space of trams and other can be safe.
Moving horse trams will make it safer.
Railway experts consulted.
Statement by Mr Burroughs submitted to environment safety and health,
Mr Hannay asking what "a lot of opposition" to positioning of tram tracks alongside road in 2014 amounted to. Where is evidence?
NO MINUTES OF MEETING WITH STAKEHOLDERS
Inspector reading out results of 2014 consultation.
Murray Lambden whether the 2014 consultation included any online consultation. (using the MHK approach of knowing the answer)! NO
2010 consultations were much more extensive.
Mr Yellop now talking about health and safety.
Risk profiling - reduced risk as far as possible, Horse tram operator consulted.
Defines reasonable foreseeable.
Job to ensure there is co-operation between all parties to make it safe,
Off we go
At the table at the front of the inquiry room.
THESE NOTES FOR GUIDANCE ONLY. UNOFFICIAL
Started.
Kaz Ryzner opening statement for DoI.
Douglas Borough Council now introducing Comment about late receipt of risk assessment.
People speaking registered to speak against will be:
Bruce Hannay
David Quirk
Murray Lambden
John Pennington
Michael Fayle
Dudley Butt
David Churcher
Gill Churcher
Patricia Newton
Vanda Murray
Reference to Andy & Maria Bridson objections. Not able to attend meeting. If they know when they can attend they will be able to submit questions. Mr Bridson announced that he is here!
ML clarified that Facebook group an outlet for a campaign not a formal group.
Mr & Mrs Bridson to speak this evening.
Criticism of late submission of risk assessment. Consultant was not intending to stay beyond today.
If consultants who submitted risk assessment not available throughout inquiry may be adjourned after all other evidence.
Site inspection. Inspector walked prom many times, Walked the prom this weekend and further inspection with notes. Monday morning walked again. And Tuesday night, Assessing peak hour traffic. Will visit again. Has previously been on horse trams.
Copies of risk assessment to be printed for those who have not seen it.
Certification re ownership of land. Other land owners own part of the site. Ownership form not completed correctly. Request for an amended land ownership certificate. Inspector satisfied that nobody prejudiced.
When was application made? Part of old system. Transfer of planning function since then. Inspector describes in as "unusual". Surprising that inquiry under old system. May ask for professional opinion re status of planning systems.
Procedural matters complete.
Mr Allan - another consultant. traffic engineer. 16 years experience. Company called SIS. travelling modeling.
Two new roundabouts.
Moving tramways.
Current start/stop traffic behaviour will be reduced. Reduced journey time reliability.
No specific objections about traffic modelling but some about use of roundabout.
Inspector says that people might not have understood what traffic modeling is?
Mr Allan explains how modelling works.
THESE NOTES FOR GUIDANCE ONLY. UNOFFICIAL
Started.
Kaz Ryzner opening statement for DoI.
Douglas Borough Council now introducing Comment about late receipt of risk assessment.
People speaking registered to speak against will be:
Bruce Hannay
David Quirk
Murray Lambden
John Pennington
Michael Fayle
Dudley Butt
David Churcher
Gill Churcher
Patricia Newton
Vanda Murray
Reference to Andy & Maria Bridson objections. Not able to attend meeting. If they know when they can attend they will be able to submit questions. Mr Bridson announced that he is here!
ML clarified that Facebook group an outlet for a campaign not a formal group.
Mr & Mrs Bridson to speak this evening.
Criticism of late submission of risk assessment. Consultant was not intending to stay beyond today.
If consultants who submitted risk assessment not available throughout inquiry may be adjourned after all other evidence.
Site inspection. Inspector walked prom many times, Walked the prom this weekend and further inspection with notes. Monday morning walked again. And Tuesday night, Assessing peak hour traffic. Will visit again. Has previously been on horse trams.
Copies of risk assessment to be printed for those who have not seen it.
Certification re ownership of land. Other land owners own part of the site. Ownership form not completed correctly. Request for an amended land ownership certificate. Inspector satisfied that nobody prejudiced.
When was application made? Part of old system. Transfer of planning function since then. Inspector describes in as "unusual". Surprising that inquiry under old system. May ask for professional opinion re status of planning systems.
Procedural matters complete.
Mr Allan - another consultant. traffic engineer. 16 years experience. Company called SIS. travelling modeling.
Two new roundabouts.
Moving tramways.
Current start/stop traffic behaviour will be reduced. Reduced journey time reliability.
No specific objections about traffic modelling but some about use of roundabout.
Inspector says that people might not have understood what traffic modeling is?
Mr Allan explains how modelling works.
You should see a sidebar with links to all the documents at the Cabinet Office and also our own document store which you can access here:
http://1drv.ms/1NBx3Vg
I have added the Safety Report - sorry its late but it was only sent to me yesterday and I have a day job!
Agenda for public inquiry today
Ref No: DF15/0019 (linked to DF15/0022 & DF15/0023)
Application No: 15/00594/B (linked to 15/00598/CON & 15/00599/CON)
______________________________________________________________
INQUIRY AGENDA
_______________________________________________________________
Inquiry to open on: 25 November 2015 at 09.30hrs
Wednesday - iMuseum meeting room, Kingswood Grove, Douglas
Thursday - the Barool Suite, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas
Friday - the Barool Suite, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas
Wednesday Evening Session to be held at Sefton Hotel - 18.00hrs, 25 November 2015
________________________________________________________________
Applications for Planning Approval and Registered Building Consent by
The Department of Infrastructure Highway Services Division (DI HSD) for:
(i). Re-construction of the highway and footways to create low speed streetscape, re-location of horse tram tracks on to the promenade walkway, re-surfacing the promenade walkway and creation of a cultural quarter near the Gaiety Theatre, Douglas Promenade, (from Peveril Square to Strathallan Crescent Douglas)
(ii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 200, The Gaiety Theatre, Harris Promenade, Douglas.
(iii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 82, Castle Mona Colonnade, Central Promenade Douglas.
________________________________________________________________
1. Inquiry Opening/Introductions/General Rules
2. Notifications/Certification and Planning Regulations
3. Appearances/Representations/Press
4. Procedure/Programme/Other matters
5. Queries and Matters of Clarification
________________________________________________________________
PART 1
THE CASES AND STATEMENTS OF THE PARTIES
________________________________________________________________
6. Case for the Department of Infrastructure, Highway Services
(DI HSD) - Applicant
Opening statement – Brief introduction (Mr Kaz Ryzner)
Initial Planning Statement of Case and Application Reports (May 2015)
Supplementary Planning Information (August 2015)
The Amended Scheme
Statement and outline - Mr Kaz Ryzner
Project Design Issues - Mr J Davidson
Highway Design - Mr P Barnett
Streetscape Planning - Mr A Thompson
Option Testing Report - Mr R Allan
Road Safety Audit - Mr R Cyples
Summary of Proposals - Mr A Burroughs
Risk Assessment/safety- Mr Yellup
Tramway Provision on the Promenade and Walkway (see PART 2)
7. Statement by Planning and Building Control Directorate (PBDC)
Brief introduction
Main considerations for Inspector and Council of Minsters
Statement
Matters of clarification
Questions
8. Case for Highways Services Directorate (HSD)
As HSD responding to the Application
Introduction
Car Parking Provision
Impact on Traffic Flows
Pedestrian Movements
Horse Trams
General
9. Case for Manx National Heritage (MNH)
10. Case for Douglas Borough Council (DBC)
11. Cases for Objectors to the Application (OA)
Initial Objections to the applications
Objections following amendments
Named Objectors and those wishing to speak at the Inquiry
12. Other Representations
Manx Utilities
Isle of Man Fire and Rescue Services
_________________________________________________________
PART 2
13. The Matters relating to the Re-location of the Tramway
History and present situation
Previous proposed scheme (tramway in carriageway Option A)
Current up-to-date proposal (Option B)
Alternative Options by others (dual track/single track in carriageway)
Effect on visual amenity (Character and appearance of DPCA)
Parking provisions
Other Promenade uses (funfairs, markets, exhibitions, events)
Safety: pedestrians; (including those who are visually impaired or disabled); cyclists; children/prams; dogs; other users.
14. Risk Assessments
Initial Risk Assessments (1.DOI and 2.BSA)
Designers Risk Assessment (combination of the two above)
Operators Risk Assessment (Pegasus for DBC)
Issues referred to in Shared Surface Report
Any other matters
15. Conditions
16. Any other matters
17. Closing submissions
18. Close
AGENDA for Evening Session at Sefton Hotel (25/11/15 at 18.00hrs)
________________________________________________________________
Inquiry into
Applications for Planning Approval and Registered Building Consent by
The Department of Infrastructure Highway Services Division (DI HSD) for:
(i). Re-construction of the highway and footways to create low speed streetscape, re-location of horse tram tracks on to the promenade walkway,re-surfacing the promenade walkway and creation of a cultural quarter near the Gaiety Theatre, Douglas Promenade, (from Peveril Square to Strathallan Crescent Douglas)
(ii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 200, The Gaiety Theatre, Harris Promenade, Douglas.
(iii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 82, Castle Mona Colonnade, Central Promenade Douglas.
________________________________________________________________
1. Introductions. Purpose of session/Part of Inquiry/Not a public meeting
2. Brief outline of Cases and/or Statements
Applicant
Planning
Highways
Objectors
3. Questions and matters of clarification
4. Matters relating to relocation of tramway on to Promenade Walkway
Visual amenity effects (Character and appearance of DPCA)
Parking provisions
Other Promenade uses (funfairs, markets, exhibitions)
Safety/pedestrians/cyclists/children/dogs/blind persons/disabled
Suggested Alternatives by Objectors
1. Dual track in carriageway and,
2. Single track in carriageway (side/middle)
5. Risk Assessments
Outline Explanation by Applicant team
Combined Designer RA
DBC Operator’s RA
Questions
6. Shared Surface Report
Introduction
Questions/Matters of clarification
7. Other Matters
Application No: 15/00594/B (linked to 15/00598/CON & 15/00599/CON)
______________________________________________________________
INQUIRY AGENDA
_______________________________________________________________
Inquiry to open on: 25 November 2015 at 09.30hrs
Wednesday - iMuseum meeting room, Kingswood Grove, Douglas
Thursday - the Barool Suite, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas
Friday - the Barool Suite, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas
Wednesday Evening Session to be held at Sefton Hotel - 18.00hrs, 25 November 2015
________________________________________________________________
Applications for Planning Approval and Registered Building Consent by
The Department of Infrastructure Highway Services Division (DI HSD) for:
(i). Re-construction of the highway and footways to create low speed streetscape, re-location of horse tram tracks on to the promenade walkway, re-surfacing the promenade walkway and creation of a cultural quarter near the Gaiety Theatre, Douglas Promenade, (from Peveril Square to Strathallan Crescent Douglas)
(ii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 200, The Gaiety Theatre, Harris Promenade, Douglas.
(iii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 82, Castle Mona Colonnade, Central Promenade Douglas.
________________________________________________________________
1. Inquiry Opening/Introductions/General Rules
2. Notifications/Certification and Planning Regulations
3. Appearances/Representations/Press
4. Procedure/Programme/Other matters
5. Queries and Matters of Clarification
________________________________________________________________
PART 1
THE CASES AND STATEMENTS OF THE PARTIES
________________________________________________________________
6. Case for the Department of Infrastructure, Highway Services
(DI HSD) - Applicant
Opening statement – Brief introduction (Mr Kaz Ryzner)
Initial Planning Statement of Case and Application Reports (May 2015)
Supplementary Planning Information (August 2015)
The Amended Scheme
Statement and outline - Mr Kaz Ryzner
Project Design Issues - Mr J Davidson
Highway Design - Mr P Barnett
Streetscape Planning - Mr A Thompson
Option Testing Report - Mr R Allan
Road Safety Audit - Mr R Cyples
Summary of Proposals - Mr A Burroughs
Risk Assessment/safety- Mr Yellup
Tramway Provision on the Promenade and Walkway (see PART 2)
7. Statement by Planning and Building Control Directorate (PBDC)
Brief introduction
Main considerations for Inspector and Council of Minsters
Statement
Matters of clarification
Questions
8. Case for Highways Services Directorate (HSD)
As HSD responding to the Application
Introduction
Car Parking Provision
Impact on Traffic Flows
Pedestrian Movements
Horse Trams
General
9. Case for Manx National Heritage (MNH)
10. Case for Douglas Borough Council (DBC)
11. Cases for Objectors to the Application (OA)
Initial Objections to the applications
Objections following amendments
Named Objectors and those wishing to speak at the Inquiry
12. Other Representations
Manx Utilities
Isle of Man Fire and Rescue Services
_________________________________________________________
PART 2
13. The Matters relating to the Re-location of the Tramway
History and present situation
Previous proposed scheme (tramway in carriageway Option A)
Current up-to-date proposal (Option B)
Alternative Options by others (dual track/single track in carriageway)
Effect on visual amenity (Character and appearance of DPCA)
Parking provisions
Other Promenade uses (funfairs, markets, exhibitions, events)
Safety: pedestrians; (including those who are visually impaired or disabled); cyclists; children/prams; dogs; other users.
14. Risk Assessments
Initial Risk Assessments (1.DOI and 2.BSA)
Designers Risk Assessment (combination of the two above)
Operators Risk Assessment (Pegasus for DBC)
Issues referred to in Shared Surface Report
Any other matters
15. Conditions
16. Any other matters
17. Closing submissions
18. Close
AGENDA for Evening Session at Sefton Hotel (25/11/15 at 18.00hrs)
________________________________________________________________
Inquiry into
Applications for Planning Approval and Registered Building Consent by
The Department of Infrastructure Highway Services Division (DI HSD) for:
(i). Re-construction of the highway and footways to create low speed streetscape, re-location of horse tram tracks on to the promenade walkway,re-surfacing the promenade walkway and creation of a cultural quarter near the Gaiety Theatre, Douglas Promenade, (from Peveril Square to Strathallan Crescent Douglas)
(ii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 200, The Gaiety Theatre, Harris Promenade, Douglas.
(iii). Change of surface to external footway at Registered Building No 82, Castle Mona Colonnade, Central Promenade Douglas.
________________________________________________________________
1. Introductions. Purpose of session/Part of Inquiry/Not a public meeting
2. Brief outline of Cases and/or Statements
Applicant
Planning
Highways
Objectors
3. Questions and matters of clarification
4. Matters relating to relocation of tramway on to Promenade Walkway
Visual amenity effects (Character and appearance of DPCA)
Parking provisions
Other Promenade uses (funfairs, markets, exhibitions)
Safety/pedestrians/cyclists/children/dogs/blind persons/disabled
Suggested Alternatives by Objectors
1. Dual track in carriageway and,
2. Single track in carriageway (side/middle)
5. Risk Assessments
Outline Explanation by Applicant team
Combined Designer RA
DBC Operator’s RA
Questions
6. Shared Surface Report
Introduction
Questions/Matters of clarification
7. Other Matters
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